Author | Go! Push Pops
Featured image credit:
Char Johnson performing with Zebra Baby in Goddess Clap Back: Hip Hop Feminism in Art at the Cue Art Foundation. Photography by Elisa Garcia de la Huerta.
Our upcoming project “Diamond Tribe,” a workshop with at-risk homeless LGBT youth of Manhattan, is essentially the outcome of a 4 year long creative relationship with one of our favorite rappers of the lesbian hip hop crew Zebra Baby. Now focusing on her exciting new solo project as BONES, in anticipation of our upcoming project “Diamond Tribe,” Go! Push Pops is releasing the unpublished interview that spurned this new stage of our work.
BONES: First of all thank you for inviting me to perform at the Cue Art Foundation’s Hip Hop Feminism show. Before “Goddess Clap Back” I was getting really excited making the costume with my friend and I was thinking about tribes. I’m very interested in tribes and women coming together to do something supportive.
PUSH POPS: Holla!
BONES: I was always the one looking in some magazine and tearing out the page with TLC or Queen Latifah. People still don’t know that there are out, black, strong female MC’s out there who aren’t afraid of what the public is going to think of them. It’s pretty upsetting when you think about where the world is right now in terms of music, especially hip hop. “What do you think about gay hip hop?” That’s like the interview question of the century right now. And the response always goes something like, “I mean I don’t know I don’t listen to it they can do what they want just don’t bring it my way.” They think that that’s being accepting. Zebra Baby up against any of the male rappers that have just come out? We would be neck to neck in that race. I’ve never liked competing. It’s about our voice being heard.
PUSH POPS: Exactly, women have to create the space for other women to popout!!
BONES: That’s why I always appreciated Go! Push Pops because you guys always supported us as Zebra Baby. You have these media outlets that think they are being so progressive because they discovered some kid in Sweden doing sad rap. Zebra Baby’s been around for 4 years now. A track of ours pretty much went to #1 Electronic. Like Jungle Pussy, she’s fucking amazing… Jungle Pussy’s killing it. And Dai Burger. Women are so powerful you know?
PUSH POPS: Problem is if you want to really make it as a rapper your identity choices are typical blonde straight chick, typical black male hood dude or maybe, increasingly, there’s more acceptance for gay male rappers…
BONES: Oh yeah, just because you’re gay you’re still a man. Shout out to Zebra Katz!
PUSH POPS: Right here in Brooklyn we have Cakes Da Killa who was all up in Pitchfork and on the cover of all these magazines, but are those people really making money? There’s got to still be a ceiling for any gay rapper. Like what?! Frank Ocean is the first gay rapper? There’s just so much crazy media hype he’s not even a rapper and he’s not even gay.
BONES: Frank Ocean wouldn’t have been if he had come out before. You know what I mean? So maybe you’re doing yourself an injustice by coming out… I mean I don’t give a fuck!!
PUSH POPS: Frank Ocean created his identity around being straight and catering to a hetero female audience and then…boom! I’m gay buy my album!
BONES: I mean everyone just assumed that he was straight, they can make that assumption. I feel like you see me and you already know (I’m a lesbian) if you don’t than you’re an idiot. But people always come up to me after a Zebra Baby show and they say “Man I didn’t think you guys were going to be that good…”
PUSH POPS: Guys say that or girls?
BONES: Both.
PUSH POPS: And it implies that it’s because you’re a woman kind of thing…
BONES: I think it’s because lesbian electronic rapping duo sounds fucking horrible!
PUSH POPS: And you’re a feminist so you almost have to apologize for using profanity and misogyny. Can you explain why you use profanity and the value of that? What is your politics around that and why do you do it?
BONES: It’s me being true to myself. We’re all animals, we go through so many different emotions and it’s about me painting my picture. My thing with misogyny is it’s hate. I have nothing but love for the women that are in my life and myself. If I was a misogynist than I would hate myself. I just feel like I have to be real. It’s really about me really connecting with that side – call it dark – I’m human and I don’t operate on one level.
PUSH POPS: It’s an outlet… letting it release through creativity.
BONES: The painter has their brush and the canvas and they go for it, mine just happens to be a little bit more powerful. Because it’s speech, you now?
PUSH POPS: For you there’s this transgressive quality to saying cunt or clit or bitch. Those are words to reclaim because we are queer, punk and feminist. If we’re listening to some mainstream rapper on a major label we have the right to be offended as women. Whereas you’re making a political statement using misogyny against misogyny. But you get more heat from it, because you’re part of the feminist community.
BONES: I’m not the fucking face of feminism. People say “You just set women back however many years” or “I gotta be afraid of a man now and I gotta watch out for these dykes!”
PUSH POPS: As comments on the internet?
BONES: Internet or in conversation. I don’t want to say that there’s a difference from a man saying it than from me saying it.
PUSH POPS: It’s a man’s right to his anger in Art, if Kanye West is angry at women…?
BONES: What I’m most upset about right now is how black men are bringing down dark skinned black women. In their lyrics, in interviews. I was a big fan of Dennis Rodman and then he said something–
PUSH POPS: Is he a rapper?
BONES: He’s a basketball player. Dennis Rodman, I loved that motherfucker! I wanted to be him and then he said something about black women and he kicked some woman out of his hotel room because she had a “black attitude.” I never looked at him the same again. I took down all my posters. You look at ASAP Rocky’s lyrics… all about white chicks. Light skinned this… Asap Rocky said something about how dark skinned women shouldn’t wear red lipstick. Even with women they’re terrible. Angel Haze said something about Azaelia Bank’s skin color.
PUSH POPS: Like it was too dark?
BONES: Yeah, when they got into some beef on twitter I don’t even know why I know this shit?!
PUSH POPS: What about someone like Azaelia Banks. I don’t know what her sexual orientation is but I feel that she adopts lesbianism in a certain way, or even coopts it.
BONES: She has said that she is bisexual. More power to her but somebody tells me that they’re bi… shout out to the bisexual community, but they’re not gay. It’s more acceptable for women to be bisexual.
PUSH POPS: A female rapper is always courting a male audience as a sex object. As BONES you’re not making yourself into a sex object. Although you are in a certain way, all rappers are because they’re talking about sexualized things. Or rappers that are gay but their whole audience is still like straight women because that’s how you make money.
BONES: Who are you referring to…
PUSH POPS: You just hear things about how a lot of the hip hop industry is gay and closeted. It’s like the “no homo” thing is so over the top.
BONES: Lil Wayne was another one that was against dark skinned women.
PUSH POPS: Really?
BONES: Half of these dudes’ mothers, sisters and aunties, how you gonna disrespect? You’re making a group of people feel unwanted and ugly, why? I could give a fuck because they’re not my audience and I’m not attracted to them, but I don’t want the next generation to grow up feeling ugly. My mom already went through that shit, her mom probably went through that shit. When is it gonna stop?
PUSH POPS: One of the songs you did at Goddess Clap Back was about that right?
BONES: That song is called Darkie. It starts off with the Trinidad James sample, “Dark skin it Dark skin it.” Maya Angelou’s picture as a little girl for the cover. The lyrics go “darker than the night the slaves moved to the countryside, blacker than black I’m like navy I’m like purple right?” I’m saying all the things that people have said to me or my brother because we are dark. In my family everything from your skin color to navy exists. My great grandmother was part white. The family was color struck. Any light skin baby that would come out, “So pretty, so pretty.” The baby could have came out looking like a fucking alien! If it was light-skinned, it was pretty. I rapped for some dudes overseas and I said “not a pretty bitch like that dude ASAP but I got a pretty bitch that like to pet my cat.” People might think he’s good looking with bone straight hair and his grills and shit, but that’s not me anyways. I’m not existing in that world.
PUSH POPS: So you feel like there is a divide?
BONES: Take Kay Slay that white rapper from the west coast. We were going to open for her before hurricane Irene and that show got cancelled. They had us opening for her. She’s great but I think it also gives her credibility to have these two hardcore lesbians open. Our music is more punk than hip hop.
PUSH POPS: She’s more PC?
BONES: She’s pop, super talented. But everybody moves to NY to have that edge. I think it makes you more credible than coming from Oregon. How many fucking rappers do you know that come from Oregon? Shout out!
PUSH POPS: People are going to write you off immediately if you’re white and you don’t lay claim to some legitimate hood…
BONES: We have Macklemore. I don’t give a fuck what color you are you could be purple. The fact that Macklemore is using what mainstream power he has to say “stop with the hatred” is great. I don’t put any struggle up next to any other. I don’t put any genocide next to another. You had a lot of people saying Macklemore is exploiting the gay community. He didn’t have to say shit, he is standing up for us.
PUSH POPS: Do you ever feel like that works in your favor?
BONES: No, I feel like if Ally was to go and get a record deal she’d get a record deal faster because she’s white.
PUSH POPS: We’re all kind of tired of people talking about selling out and cooption and commodification and companies but it’s true. A lot of the really important innovations in arts do start in the gay community but the money never makes it back there.
BONES: Yeah but they have stylists and those stylists are —
PUSH POPS: Prowling around the underground…
BONES: GAY!
PUSH POPS: Or gay people making money but they’re still not the face of it because the face still needs to be white barbie or black beast. But it’s still not easy to be a black male unless you’re one of the chosen few who gets put on a pedestal.
BONES: Chief Keef came out, he was doing something nobody else was doing…
PUSH POPS: What do you think he was doing? Your words.
BONES: Simplifying things. Even simpler than they were before, if that’s possible. In his videos it just seems so real, he and his friends together, bonding and having a good time.
PUSH POPS: Like he was somehow pure in a way…but not in a pure way because he was so fucked up… and that’s what we crave…
BONES: Well that’s what we’re being fed. If a kid grows up only eating McDonald’s than they’re addicted to it. The person that’s feeding us is the Chief Keefs and the Juicy J’s and the countless others.
PUSH POPS: Ghettocentric rap.
BONES: Kind of mindless fucking shit. I grew up on RAGE AGAINST THE FUCKING MACHINE. I thought that muthafucka was about to start a revolution and now fast forward 2013 and…
PUSH POPS: Rewind!
BONES: Where are we?
PUSH POPS: The trap house.
BONES: It can’t be like every conscious rapper has horrible beats – I can’t stand that!
PUSH POPS: Seriously!! We’re healthy and spiritual and sometimes… all we want to do is swear and listen to Juicy J and Chief Keef. We like the beats. We like the music that makes us dance.
BONES: I like shit that makes me laugh.
PUSH POPS: I want to say the misogynist lyric and claim it as mine, there is pleasure and power in that. Angel Haze saying “Rather be a dick than a swallower.” I heard her say that first and then I realized – okay – that’s Kanye West.
BONES: I always picture myself in the ring with the greatest rappers – Tupac, Biggie Smalls, Eminem even Jay Z for a while there was like…
PUSH POPS: Because they had both, they had hot music and a message…
BONES: Their play on words was like incredible.
PUSH POPS: What about your fashion? Style of course can be a dangerous factor in rap, artistry compressed down to control through endorsements. Maybe it’s a good thing. Let’s think about the Tribe.
BONES: If I could have a stylist I would. My best friend designed the tribal costume for me and she has a brilliant mind.
PUSH POPS: Go! Push Pops (noticing Char is wearing a Push Pops shirt).
BONES: I get so many compliments on this shirt. But fuck that shit. What I think I look good in and what is the most comfortable for me. I hate socks. I fucking hate socks. I can’t have nail polish on my fingers. I don’t give a fuck. I’m not like an outcast I’m fucking thirty years old. My mom is like, “Well you got tattoos now, you got these piercings, how are you ever gonna get a job?”
PUSH POPS: You have a job!
BONES: I think she’s given up on me ever being a doctor or a lawyer. I could rap for thirty more years and never make any money off of it and that’s fine. I just recently sent out to the higher power that I want to start making money doing what I am doing. He’s getting signed for three million and I can’t even get fifty dollars off a show?
PUSH POPS: Everyone wants you to perform and they just want you to bring an audience or an energy and think that can happen for free…
BONES: Exactly. Or be a jester.
PUSH POPS: At a certain point you have to say NO!
BONES: You’re not going to get paid for everything because sometimes there isn’t any money in it but know when there is.
PUSH POPS: And how to ask…
BONES: I can’t remember who did the queer rap article. There were no women in the article. How are you covering queer rap? And this shouldn’t be a special edition. These people should have been put on a long time ago they should be up next to fucking Kendrick Lamar.
PUSH POPS: People are saying we haven’t had a strong female mc in a while and yet the popular new “female MCs” are gay males like Mykki Blanco or Cakes Da Killa. But shit though, we probably listen to mostly male rappers. We’re not immune to that spell.
BONES: Listen shout out to Drake – he’s doing IT. I don’t care what anybody says, he is the softest rapper alive and I think he’s a genius. ASAP Ferg – his work is fucking awesome. Crystal Caines, a female, produced a lot of that on his record.
PUSH POPS: Do people know that?
BONES: I don’t think so, but he shouts her out. Honestly fuck ASAP Rocky. Put that on paper.
PUSH POPS: Teaching all the hipsters to pat themselves on the back for doing drugs.
BONES: I don’t know any of these guys personally so I’m not going to comment on where they came from or what they went though. All I know is that when Wu Tang was talking about sleeping 5 deep in a one bedroom apartment I believe that shit to be true. Putting fucking water in cereal.
But yeah shout out to Rihanna she’s fucking sexy as hell now.
PUSH POPS: We love her, would you say she is a rapper?
BONES: She’s not a rapper. I think she could be but at the end of the day is Drake a rapper? It’s all about positivity. I respect everybody you know I do.
PUSH POPS: You just waste so much energy on resentment you have to be grateful for what you have…
BONES: You do!!
PUSH POPS: They say gratitude is an open door to abundance.
BONES: I like that. You have to work on your demons. Shout out to Angel Haze with “Clean out Her Closet.” That was a very deep song that’s probably the realest shit I heard in a very long time. I sit and I wonder why do I still kind of feel stuck? Why am I still working in retail with these people? Why am I still working this job where I’m like servicing these these people with so much entitlement who think I should be like shining they’re shoes for free? Clearly I haven’t learned something yet that’s how I take it. The abuse of power! No respect for money, no respect for people’s time and energy, no understanding.
PUSH POPS: Rap world feeds on the new… this is the new artist and the new hot jacket and the new shoes and it’s just going to cycle with no real respect for artists as human beings.
BONES: You’re a robot…
PUSH POPS: Self-destruction. Miley Cyrus: she’s doing what she’s doing now because did she ever really have a real identity? Her whole life has been media hype.
BONES: I don’t know what the fucking huff and puff about Miley Cyrus is…people see Push Pops and they’re like floored.
PUSH POPS: We get shit too!
BONES: That’s another thing, just talking about sex. A lot of things that we say is taken as misogynistic when it’s actually just me talking about sex openly as a woman. I’m talking about what’s happening in MY BED, WITH MY LIFE. I’m happy about Zebra Katz and Mykki Blanco. At the end of the day they are still both males. It all has to do with me as a black female trying to make it in the music industry. Shout out to whatever Iggy Azaelia is doing.
PUSH POPS: We need to look at the larger picture and see how there’s gatekeeping going on.
BONES: Ooh I was so pissed off when I don’t know who fucking called her the next Tupac…
PUSH POPS: Iggy Azaelia?
BONES: We’re all missing Tupac. I drew pictures of that motherfucker up on my wall. My mom cried when he died but we’re gonna – it’s not Iggy Azaelia – no she’s not filling it. I’m sorry.
PUSH POPS: Journalists are vultures. Headlines that insight anger or desire or both. Iggy Azaelia is just a pop star.
BONES: There is that little white girl who wants to look up to somebody. I appreciate her for what she is. At the end of the day it’s fear and that’s what bothers me. I’m not going to compare what happened with the queer community with what happened with the black community but I am gonna say how dare somebody who’s been oppressed oppress another group of people? How dare you to get rights and find a job and whatever else (your ass just got a job! you’re just able to date a fucking white girl!) What makes you so high and mighty?
PUSH POPS: If you’re really fighting to change society maybe you’re not going to be happy. Lauryn Hill is going to jail for tax evasion. The media’s saying she’s crazy. Maybe she’s just speaking up about what it’s like to be black even if you’re a superstar.
BONES: Let’s not forget Lauryn Hill is still a person. She had gone through a relationship that seemed very up and down and then he left her for a white lady. She’s another creative genius. She didn’t go crazy, she’s being a human. She’s dealing with it. She has emotions.
PUSH POPS: And that’s interpreted as crazy if she’s emotional…
BONES: If people don’t like your opinion they just say “you’re being crazy.”
PUSH POPS: Speaking the truth in a society that’s painful.
BONES: Exactly and they dismiss you. I identify with my masculine side and I’m in touch with my feminine side. As a little girl you’re told so many things that you shouldn’t do, that you can’t do. Gotta watch out for this weirdo…you’re like constantly watching your vagina and your ass.
PUSH POPS: Taught to see all men as predators and perverts.
PUSH POPS: I think community really is the answer. Hip hop is the tribe and it’s pushing people to come together. There are artists who have stood up for radical change and made a difference. You can just sing about drugs if you want but how is that contributing to society?
BONES: Gone are the days of like people fucking getting together and marching. I don’t believe in violence but when Malcolm X had something to say people were going outside and listening. Where are the leaders of the world right now? All corrupt and fraudulent and consuming!!
PUSH POPS: Music entails power and leadership. There is a certain responsibility. I don’t believe in censoring rappers but I do believe in holding them accountable. Rick Ross – who really cares? There’s plenty of rappers that could have said that about date rape. He was just sleepwalking through some flow, it wasn’t even his song. I do think it was good that everybody was like “Hold up!” Women are getting date raped all the time and this is a good time to bring this up and start questioning it so the youth don’t just listen to this and take it for granted and think that it’s normal.
BONES: When Tyler the Creator came out all these people were listening to his music and they were taking what he said about raping women seriously!!
PUSH POPS: It’s ironic or something. But if you’re not on that next level thinking you might just think it’s cool to rape women right? At the same time Tyler gets that extra layer of something we won’t give Rick Ross credit for. We need Ross to be really ghetto or we’d have to admit that all hip hop is a type of theater. And stereotypes $ell!
BONES: I’m just over what’s going on in music right. It’s boring for me.
PUSH POPS: We need to tweak the format of these shows so there’s a deeper interaction around the music. Everyone wants to go to that hot club! It’s about so much more than getting drunk and hooking up with someone.
BONES: God that was like the worst show ever…
PUSH POPS: I think it’s hard for artists…in NY everyone is only thinking about their self-interest. How do we combine forces? We’re all independent we don’t want to follow or compromise our creative integrity. A lot of people are saying they want to start something that’s bigger than what we know of this scene of music right now. We want people to get more out of it and more of a sense of community coming together.
BONES: It’s like when can we just live and occupy this space? I want to start a tribe.
PUSH POPS: Community really is the answer.
BONES: I’ve always operated as a gang, I feel like that makes me stronger. I’m able to operate by myself but I really do think that we need each other and we need to come together and just know each other.
PUSH POPS: Diamond Tribe!
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